Stitchcraft July 1946

If you wander over to the Stitchcraft aisle (second floor, next to the perfume and knitted underwear) you’ll see I’ve gone Stitchcraft mad recently.  My personal collection was recently augmented by a bound folder of issues from 1935 which I wouldn’t part with for love nor money, and the gorgeous patterns got me intrigued - it’s a quality magazine which often gets overlooked in the scrabble to buy vintage Vogue Knitting magazines which, incidentally, are getting harder and harder to come by.

It started out in October 1932, a Patons & Baldwins publication published in a large magazine format and, as the title would suggest, it’s not just a knitting magazine but gives directions for sewing and embroidery, tapestry etc, often including free transfers and the odd adventurous project for a wooden box or wood-framed bathmat. This makes it all the more interesting for me, you can get a real flavour of the times.

By 1942 times were tough and rationing meant that it halved in size, as most knitting patterns did, although it still managed to produce some fantastic fair-isle and gents’ one-offs. It didn’t return to its former size until 1953, by which time it had blossomed into a gorgeous curvy creation which strutted its stuff through the 1950s, but by the ’60s it was starting to feel its age and was happier with its feet up by the fire rather than go-go dancing down Carnaby Street. A prematurely aged Stitchcraft limped into the ’70s and by the ’80s P&B decided to do the humane thing and put it out of its misery.

Having said that I do have some early 1960s editions which still contain some cracking patterns, but knowing the purists you all are I’ve left them off the site. Fancy a new collection? Get shopping!

Bundle!

It’s all kicking off on the Ravelry boards … words flying, comments censored, needles aimed … the cause? A post submitted by someone working with Vodafone in Ireland on a ‘Cheer Up Ireland’ campaign which involves a bit of urban knitting (although there’s no mention of the project on their website.)

The idea is not a new one but started out with the best of intentions by Eilish Tuite, a third year sculpture student in Limerick school of Art and Design. She is working on a project called Urban Knit, the aim of which is to cover a disused building in Limerick City. The cover will eventually be chopped up into smaller blankets and donated to St.Vincent’s Charity (hopefully washed and repaired after much exposure to the elements?), although as DeadlyKnitshade points out in her post, the charity don’t seem to be asking for knitted blankets, more “help financially and/or by giving of your time”.

Eilish has been calling for contributions of wool since the beginning of February, and I’m not sure whether Vodafone approached her after the project had been initiated or if it was the other way round.

Then a post popped up on Ravelry yesterday encouraging people to submit knitted squares. The contributor who started off the thread (under the username of Slkav) had joined Ravelry the same day - no profile, no knitting projects, no other contributions save this post. Their email address suggests they work for a company called Simply Zesty - an online pr and social media agency who frankly should know better.

After a few initial encouraging messages, the mood has changed as knitters have started to voice their resentment at the attempt to lure them into a corporate campaign.

Boff, where do we start with this? Advertising campaigns surrounding both the arts and charities are nothing new, nor is getting the unwitting public involved in contributing content, but I think the Vodafone case is a prime example of lazy PR bods delving into what they see as the subculture of the moment and underestimating the community. Subtlety and integrity are sadly lacking in this fumbled attempt to infiltrate the tight-knit (pardon the pun) group and this is, of course, a ridiculous crime in an era of online social networking, particularly from a company claiming to be experts in that field.

The group the thread is posted in is a fairly anonymous one called ‘Needlework on the Net‘ which seems to have been picked for its popularity and the frequency of its member contributions. Possibly where Slkav went wrong was in underestimating the passion the Ravelry members feel for their craft - that and the ability to sniff out a fake a mile off.

Knitters do not like being patronised - we’ve got years of dodgy imagery to live down and most of us are proud of, and committed to, our craft, so for a corporate representative to dip in with no background or enthusiasm in the field stinks of fraud.

A Copley's pattern for 1940s soldiers' comforts

We love what we do and we especially love it if there’s an excellent reason for doing it - knitting for causes has been consistently popular since ladies started knitting soldiers’ comforts during the Crimean War (the cardigan is named after the 7th Earl of Cardigan, the first British officer to cross the Russian lines in the famous Charge of the Light Brigade) and, of course, continued to do so during the First and Second World Wars.  There are plenty of charities out there calling for knitted contributions (this Get Knitting article is a good place to start if you’re interested), we can personally choose which charity we’d like to help out, so it feels cheap when corporates come over all bandwagonesque and hitch a ride.

Vodafone, and possibly Elish herself, are probably a little bewildered by this tremendous backfire - after all, if a big brand name approached me with an offer to sponsor a project with maximum publicity, I’d definitely flirt with it for a while, maybe even go to second base. Financial and business patronisation of the arts is another age-old concept, they have always had a necessary and yet uneasy relationship. It’s a vulnerable alliance, easily soured and needing to be handled with care - I watched many bands who jumped at the chance to sign to a huge label, grateful for the money and opportunity, only to become embittered when they saw their artistic control wither away.

Innocent's 'Big Knit'

Knitting and craft generally is hot news at the moment and there are plenty of media types currently wanting a piece of it (yes you Harry Hill!). It’s inevitable and not always a car-crash - Innocent Drinks have successfully run ‘The Big Knit‘ for a few years now, a campaign set up alongside Sainsbury’s, which encourages people to send in small knitted hats for the bottles. For every behatted smoothie sold, 35p is given to Age Concern and Help The Aged. They give full details of where the money goes and it’s clear they’re working alongside the charity. Sure it’s a marketing gimmick, but it’s better thought-through and more sympathetic to the cause than Vodafone’s limp effort, and they came up with it before knitting hit the big-time.

Hopefully this case will be a warning to other marketeers … use your heads, show commitment and less of the patronisation you monkies!

P.S. For more info on what happens to knitted items and textiles donated to charity, read Deadly Knitshade’s informative Ravelry post, or go straight to the informative article she links to …

Miss Marple Vintage Scarf - Skiff stylee

It all started with an email through the website from a lovely lady looking for a pattern for a keyhole scarf she’d seen on an episode of Miss Marple.  I sympathised - I’ve been known to grab the camera and take snaps of the TV screen myself when something knitted takes my fancy, and what do you know, here was another TV-knitting-snapper.

I thought the pattern had to be out there so did a search on the web but with no luck - what would Elizabeth Zimmerman do in these circumstances (assuming she was a Miss Marple fan)? Grab her needles and some graph paper - and a pen to write down witty, bone-dry comments - and make up her own, so in the spirit of Zimmerman I did the same (minus the witty comments).  I ordered some fine yarn (UK Alpaca Super Fine DK in ‘Fawn’), did some tension swatches and off I went.  Okay, a scarf’s not the most difficult of things to create, but after a false start I was steaming ahead and feeling pretty chuffed, especially when the keyhole segment worked like a dream.

I typed up the instructions, hit the .pdf creation button … then inevitably found the pattern by chance (through Ravelry of course). My version doesn’t differ that much, the stitch is a little finer and the approach to the keyhole section differs where I went off-road and did a simple graft onto the original body of the knitting.  Either way, it’s a sweet scarf … I’m planning another one in black with some white crocheted edging for a dressier version.

Skiff’s Miss Marple Vintage Scarf instructions

Original vintage scarf instructions

Knitting Mag February

A pretty impressive ‘Knitting’ magazine this month (February’s edition) it’s gone all vintage, using the land girls as its inspiration and including an article by vintage knitting champion Susan Crawford (one of her lovely patterns also features).

Patterns include a great 40s-inspired fair isle tank top, a gents military-style cardigan (which Mr Skiff has got his eye on) and cool satchel-style bag.  Must admit, not many knitting magazines inspire me to pick up my needles but this one’s making my fingers itch …

One of the many patches of lime and fragment we'll be calling home

In a last desperate attempt to squeeze some relaxation out of the year, Skiff is hiking off round the M25 to a medieval shack in a remote part of Suffolk. Apparently Purton Green is one of ‘the many lost villages of Suffolk, where generations spent their lives, but which are now just patches of lime and fragments in the plough’. Here’s hoping the place we’re staying is a bit more than that, it’s a bit parky at the moment.

Anyways, I’m away from Wednesday 30th December - Monday 4th January, so any orders placed during that time will be sent out on Tuesday 5th January - apologies for any inconvenience.

The weather’s not looking too good, but as long as we can get there with the car full of choice snacks and many bottles of finest wines known to humanity (courtesy of Mr Skiff), we’re not too bothered about being holed up for the duration, or indeed the journey home.

Meantime, I wish you all a fantastic New Year and all good things for 2010!

Selbu 'Sport' Mittens - not to be used for wrestling

Let it snow let it snow let it snow … mainly because I’ve finished my extremely warm graphic Selbu fair isle mittens, and just in time as it happens because there are some brass monkeys out there looking rather cross.

They were nice and quick to knit up and despite the fact that the original pattern calls for generic Germantown wool and there was no tension guide, they weren’t too hard to adapt.  Germantown wool is an American term for a specific yarn from Pennsylvania often used in Navajo weaving - something like DK from what I can fathom but correct me if I’m wrong. I went for something I thought would be soft and thick but fine enough to give a clear fair isle outline, so I decided on good old King Cole Merino DK.  As for the tension, after a couple of false starts I ended up with 3mm dpns, and they fit perfectly. They look enormous due to the extra long cuff - keeps out the snow don’t you know.

I’d vaguely heard of the Selbu tradition but hadn’t really delved any further.  Then I came across a 1920s or ’30s vintage American booklet ‘Ann Orr’s Spreads & Doilies’  which strangely had two patterns for what Ms Orr called ’sports’ mittens and gloves in the middle of all the patterns for lacy bits and bobs - by ’sports’ I presume she means skiing and not wrestling.  I fell in love with the bold graphic designs and that was that.

As ever I couldn’t just knit the things I needed to get all academic and wax lyrical about the history behind them so I delved around a bit … pay attention you at the back, I’ll be asking questions afterwards …

Selbu is a Norwegian municipality in Sør-Trøndelag county, and well-known for its fair isle designs and lusekofte.  The latter are traditional jumpers - the literal translation is ‘lice jacket’ due to the repeated use of isolated black stitches. The mitten and glove designs particularly have moved on from their folk origins and become something of a design icon and successful cottage industry.

Selbustrikk

As I posted the project on Ravelry, I had a look around and came across the Selbustrikk group, created around the same-titled book which is packed full of gorgeous designs … in Norwegian.  It seems you can get hold of a copy with English translation in the US but couldn’t find how to source it directly in the UK.  I ended up contacting Eva at Hellyle in Sweden who could provide me with the book but without translation.  I think the diagrams are pretty self-explanatory with these designs though, so possibly transcend the language barrier.

Selbuvotter

Another Selbu knitting book, Selbuvotter by Terri Shea is available from the author’s US website (or indirectly through Amazon.co.uk but at a greater cost) and looks like an interesting read, written with love and combining a detailed history and 30 classic patterns.  In English too which is useful when you’re struggling with 4 needles and desperately trying to keep correct tension while you’re interweaving … and then translating into Norwegian.

Traditional Scandinavian Knitting

Finally, if you’re looking for something a little more general, there’s an old favourite of mine lurking on my shelves, Traditional Scandinavian Knitting written by Sheila McGregor in 1984. Sheila immersed herself in Scandinavian knitting design and tradition to produce this wonderful guide which explains the origins, various types and techniques from the regional styles of Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Iceland, and includes charts and patterns.

Cold hands = warm heart but also a rather nasty case of frostbite so I know which I’m going for this winter.

Crikey it’s opening night down at the old Skiff Vintage Knitting Club … the martinis are flowing, the piano player’s in full flow and your investigative reporter (that’s me) is grabbing the moment and chatting to any happy souls who happen to pass through and spend a few moments reclining on the red velvet chaise. I’m fascinated by what drives other vintage knitters on, and I’ll be inviting inspirational ladies (and gents) to join me in Skiff’s exclusive basement club … the company’s scintillating, the answers are fascinating and every Q&A will tell a personal story, not just about vintage knitting, but what makes knitters tick in general.

First to join me is the lovely (and prolific) Susan Crawford,  knitwear designer, lecturer, co-author of ‘A Stitch in Time, Vintage Knitting and Crochet Patterns 1921-1949′ and the editor of Knit On The Net … did I mention she was prolific? Step inside and help yourself to some canapés …

I don’t have clear recall but apparently I was four or five when I first tried knitting.  I remember knitting from when I was seven.  My two grandmothers, Ruby and Betty taught me together and also taught me to crochet, sew, embroider etc.  Ruby was a very talented seamstress making ball gowns for dancers in the 1930s.

It began as a teenager when I seriously began to make my own clothes so as not to be seen wearing anything the same as anyone else. Initially it was predominantly the 1950s but I became drawn more and more to the 40s and 30s.  My grandparents again played a big part in this, introducing me to old films and film stars. At Ruby nanna’s house there was also a large collection of Photoplay albums which I poured through constantly looking for inspiration.  My very first role model was Elizabeth Taylor.

To be honest this changes depending on what my current inspirations are. But my favourite era/s for knitted clothing are the mid 30s through to the end of the 40s.  It was the most incredibly creative time and yet used very limited resources.  Sometimes having limitations can enhance the creative process and during this period it certainly did.  It was also a very brave time for design, with outlandish design details such as huge shoulders and 18 inch high hats and these clothes were worn by ordinary women not just film stars.  There was so much more glamour - getting changed for dinner is such a wonderful thought.  Right through to the late 60s my mum still got changed mid afternoon ready for the evening meal, even re-applying her make up.

Knitting is my main creative outlet allowing me to express my ideas.  It is also my therapy and my relaxation and it clothes me.  In addition to this, for me, it is a link to the past and a way of exploring and examining the lives of women from these times.  There is so much you can learn from something as simple as a vintage knitting pattern.  Where it has changed for me, is my learning to use knitting as a means of expression. I think where it has changed the most however, is in other people’s response to my knitting.  Far more people take it seriously now and it is no longer something to be vaguely embarrassed about.

What is most challenging and satisfying at the same time is solving the riddle and producing something wearable and beautiful from a hard to decipher pattern.  I particularly enjoy the challenge when sewing up instructions are non existent and you have to work it out for yourself.  Successfully finding a modern yarn replacement that achieves a good result is also highly satisfying.

That’s a really hard question to answer.  Completing ‘Concentrate on the Sleeves’ from ‘A Stitch in Time‘ from a sewing up point of view was complicated.  There have been some real challenges and yet I find that usually the pattern unless it is incorrect, is easier to follow than it often looks.

Now that really is difficult to answer.  I love so many for so many different reasons, but to name a couple: ‘Such Flattering Puff Sleeves’ for its simplicity of design yet its effectiveness; ‘Have you made a jumper yet?’ from 1921 which had barely any instruction and a dreadfully poor photograph yet resulted in a beautiful garment which got me a three page spread in the Independent on Sunday; and ‘Sun Ray Ribbing’ again for exquisite design, its deceptive simplicity and its wearability.

Pure wools, preferably 4 ply. I don’t have one favourite as different yarns work for different designs, but for its vintage feel Jamieson & Smith 2 ply jumper weight yarn is hard to beat.

There is no chance of me being a one garment at a time knitter unfortunately. I have numerous projects in progress at any one time.  Usually several at various stages of knitting and several more waiting to be finished.  There are seven garments for ‘A Stitch in Time Volume 2‘ waiting to be sewn up and four or five from a Vintage Christmas Knits booklet I am also working on.  On top of this there is on going knitting for both of these plus four or five personal projects and commissions for knitting magazines and individuals.

I absolutely love knitting my Tiny Tippet pattern from knitonthenet.com which takes less than one ball of wool, can be knitted in about three hours and makes a great gift.  It is an adaption of a very basic instruction in a knitting book from 1880. The original pattern just tells you to buy some wool and cast on some stitches and that is basically that!

Without a doubt television as I get so much inspiration from costume too.  I have different types of programmes for different knitting levels.  To enable me to concentrate on a complicated pattern but to still know where I am up to with a programme its Murder She Wrote every time as you need to see very little of the show to know what’s going on!  For long slog knitting projects a mixture of old films either on TV or DVD and Poirot get me through.  Films vary depending on my mood, but the original of The Women, Salome, any Film Noir, Cat on a Hot Tin Roof, The Maltese Falcon and many, many more.

I think it has a lot to do with what I talked about earlier - the inventiveness of the patterns and also the ingenious use of few resources, combined with a new found respect for the women of the period.  I think many of us feel by knitting these vintage patterns we become more like these women we admire so much.  There is now such an interest in thrift and make do and mend due to so many of us despairing of how wasteful we have become.  To be able to knit a sweater using only a few balls of wool and spending so little to create something so beautiful is immensely satisfying and reassuring.

As mentioned above I have started working on the second volume of ‘A Stitch in Time’ which focuses on 1930 to 1959.  Several garments have already had their first knit but there is a long, long way to go yet.  I am also working on a booklet for this christmas called ‘Vintage Christmas Knits‘ which is a collection of both my original and adapted designs for cosy knits for Christmas and beyond.

Be brave, be prepared to experiment and possibly be disappointed but don’t give up, try again.  Also keep even the smallest oddments of yarn - they make great stuffing for hand knitted buttons and shoulder pads.

You can buy ‘A Stitch In Time: 59 Vintage and Updated Patterns from 1920 - 1949′ from the Knit on the Net shop Knit on the Net is published monthly and is a great source for news and patterns. More information about Susan’s other projects can be found on her blog, Just Call Me Ruby

Lee Target's 1960s Knitted Hats

Autumn has very definitely arrived, blustering and swearing, and winter is slouching round the corner having a crafty cig, so I’ve got some rather lovely winter patterns lined up for my long dark nights trying to keep out of their way.  As well as a pair of 1940s fair isle mittens (more of which later), I’ve got my eye on some fantastic hats, including a knitted Patons ‘Svengali’ trilby.

Knitting hats and mittens is a great way of breaking up the larger, more complex and intricate pieces and I feel like I can return to a particular jumper I’m working on at the moment (14 rows to the inch, ouch) with renewed vigour.  Okay there’s an element of truth in that last statement but really I’m fooling no-one - I’m procrastinating again.  Problem is if I see a cute pattern I can’t resist I have to get going on it right away so, with one mitten down and one to go, I’m eyeing up wool for hats.

I really love the cheeky Lee Target pattern pictured above, such a great slice of late ’50s/early ’60s imagery.  So if you need a new titfer and a bit of a knitting diversion while you stay out of Winter’s way, check out Skiff’s vintage hat patterns - anyone who manages to re-create the scene of the Lee Target one, please send pictures and you’ll get a free pattern!

My Knit a Poppy Effort (any likeness between me and the model purely coincidental)

It’s not too late to show your respect in knitted form for those who fell in the great wars (and continue to fall in more recent wars).  This wonderful poppy brooch pattern costs £2 to download from Knit On The Net, all proceeds go to the Poppy Appeal (the pattern is only available until midnight on 12th November 2009 so not long to go now).

I think it’s a rather apt way to express your remembrance, particularly appropriate as the ‘Make Do & Mend’ ethos from the WWII era is so relevant and popular today (fortunately for us for different reasons). Knit on the Net have raised over £500 so far - help them push it up to £1000.

P.S. 2 days on and the total is up to £1980 - keep going!

Fair Isles - they’re all the rage!  Following my last post, I’m harbouring fair isle desires … seems that if you’re sporting a natty little fair isle tank top around town you can put a big tick in the vintage fashion box. Okay, time to confess, my fair isle technique is not the best in the world (resembles a plate of spaghetti on the reverse side and the pattern starts to look more Picasso cubist than Renoir, sigh) so I do have to work on it, but I’ve got the incentive now, I’m hooked.  With that in mind I’ve gathered my favourite fair isle patterns into their own collection.  Go on, have a peek for some inspiration, you know you want to. Meanwhile, here’s a short history lesson kids …

Duke of Windsor (and friend)

Fair Isle is the most remote inhabited island in the UK, lying halfway between Shetland and the Orkney Islands. The knitting style gained a considerable popularity when the impeccably-dressed Duke of Windsor (later to become Edward VIII) wore Fair Isle tank tops in public in 1921.

Strictly speaking, traditional Fair Isle patterns have a limited palette of five or so colours, use only two colours per row, are worked in the round, and limit the length of a run of any particular colour (you can find more about the Fair Isle history on the Scottish Textiles Heritage site). Nowadays we tend to refer to “Fair Isle” as any colourwork knitting where stitches are knit alternately in various colors, with the unused colours stranded across the back of the work. So I’m using a bit of free licence and applying the more liberal sense of the term (although there are some traditional patterns in my collection too).

And here's that jumper in detail

Yes, my geekery knows no bounds.  I was watching Scotland On Screen the other night and became entranced by Allan Jones (author of ‘Inside The Wicker Man’), in particular his jumper - check out those gorgeous colours!  Got a great ’40s gentleman’s tank top pattern which I think will lend itself nicely to this so I’m planning wildly.

Another one to join the ever-growing queue…

Emu Wool Ad 1954

Or ‘How I Learned to Stop Worrying And Love Vintage Knitting’. Planning a vintage knitting project can be a bit like a detective novel … a bit of investigative work will stand you in good stead before you pick up the needles. One of the first parts of the case to solve (and the one most likely to deter would-be vintage knitters from starting in the first place) is which yarn to use.

A fantastic place to kick-off is Kristen Rengren’s all-encompassing guide to vintage knitting; her section on choosing yarn puts you on the right path … tension (or gauge), texture, type of stitch pattern, fibre content and yardage all need to be taken into consideration before you make your choice.  She advises us to scrutinise the pattern picture and do a bit of research into the original yarn used, even look through the wool adverts of vintage knitting publications.

So you’ve got to the bottom of the original yarn … what’s a suitable replacement? You’ve got the needle size and with the help of Kristen’s guide you’ll have worked out the tension and yardage so you can pretty much start anywhere, the modern yarn world is your oyster for 4-ply and DK.  2 and 3-ply can be harder to source, and the plot thickens when you want to match the old shades and textures; sometimes the modern yarns can be too bright or the texture too rough when you want the vintage look.

I’ve been on the look-out for some smaller manufacturers for vintage yarn replacements in the UK, this the story so far …

Synthetic yarns didn’t come into popular use until the ’50s and even cotton was rarely used, so if you want to be authentic you need to get 100% wool. Shetland wools are a good place to start and I’m a big fan of Jamieson & Smith, a large Shetland wool brokers.  They have a good range of shades to buy online (you can buy a shade card first to make sure you’re getting the right colour).

P&B Yarn Ad 1952

Don’t be worried about experimenting - if you see something you think might work, buy up a sample ball or 2 and do some tension squares, see how they knit up.  The leg-work you put in initially will pay off in the long run and help out in future projects.  You don’t need to be elitist about the make or brand … I’ve had a couple of steers from a lovely lady recently towards eBay shops which have come up trumps.

Adriafil is an Italian yarn company established in 1911 and still going strong; they’re also a good source for 3-ply 100%wool with a slightly broader range of colours than the usual baby knits, so do a search on eBay and see what you come up with.

The same lady spent a while searching for the closest match to RAF blue 100% wool she could find for a 1940s re-enactment and came up with another eBay result, a Shetland wool provider Kingcraig Fabrics.  They provide larger quantities on the spool, starting at 700grams, and are extremely reasonable.  Apparently it’s slightly waxy as it’s dressed for machine knitting, so needs a gentle wash once the garment is finished.

Another contributor from the Ravelry boards put me onto Coldharbour Mill in Devon for 3-ply (I haven’t had the chance to try this one out yet).  Apparently their official line is that they don’t sell it, but if you talk to Ian the mill manager he’ll help you out. When he is spinning one of his 12 colours, he will re-set the machine afterwards to spin a 3-ply. His minimum quantity of each colour is 1 kilo (share the yarn with a friend? knit a suit?). One has to wait, though, until he has an order to fill for that particular colour. The mill can send you a shade card, or you can look on www.coldharbourmill.org.uk.

Note: While I was at the iKnit London weekender on Saturday I came across John Arbon textiles, also based at Coldharbour Mill - they specialise in gorgeous Alpaca DK, 4-ply sock yarn plus a beautifully soft Merino 4-ply in a really great range of shades which would lend themselves well to vintage projects.  I also spotted a few limited 3-ply shades lurking too, so definitely worth checking out.

If you’re going way back to the mid-end 19th century, Robin Stokes’ fascinating Civil War era website in the US has an extremely useful guide to yarn names which can still be relevant for later patterns - explains what ‘worsted’ is too (we Brits don’t always get that one.)

Copley's Yarn from 1951

There’s a stash of information out there, the vintage knitting fan club is growing pretty fast - if you’re really stuck or unsure, have a look at the vintage groups on Ravelry.  Full of fellow enthusiasts, and if you post on one of their forums you’ll usually find some extremely helpful yarn advice.

I’d love to hear from you if you’ve got any further suggestions, particularly UK based, so post a comment or drop me a line.

NB: Thanks to Sue & Victoria for their input!